I thought that I would do a nice technical post for my 1000th post.
Is it really number 1000? Yes it is -
The Sump.......... It looks like this:
The slope towards the offside is obvious and the strengthening hatching on the underside looks like a large Waffle.
The V6 Duratec was not designed to fit the Getrag gearbox, which is evident by some anomalies in the fixings.
The first photo shows the offside edge of the sump, where it meets the bell-housing.
On the Mondeo, the second open hole in this photo is used to fix the engine to the gearbox, but in the Morgan, an extra hole is drilled and a 10mm bolt is used, which is probably over-engineered, as it's only holding the two parts together.
This is how it looks from the bellhousing side, and you can see the mismatched shape.
Also visible is the rear of the large waffle strengthener, and drain plug.
This is the same side of a Ford sump - and there's no third hole.
From the other side it looks like this, and the location of the missing third hole lacks re-inforcement.
This is fixable, but more of that later - not today.......
On the nearside,this is the lower mount on the edge of the sump.
The left hand hole is used on the Ford, but on the Morgan it can't be used. and neither can the bell-housing hole, so neither is used!!
From the other (bell-housing) side looking forward:
And here's the inside, with the baffle plate removed:
Note the centre oil pick up.
This is with the baffle plate fitted:
The front pan is shaped to drain oil to the rear, and to the offside - left side in this photo.
For now, that's all, because I'm still researching the situation.
There are several different castings for Ford V6 Duratec sumps, and I'm hoping to get to the bottom of it.....
There's another dodgy DaveW pun to end on, for now.
Busy day today, so not much done to the Morgan.
I did manage to take that Series 1 specific nut & bolt out.
It's unusual in having a 13mm bolt head and a 17mm nyloc nut.
This shows the sump flange with the bolt out, and you can see that the casting has been thickened up for the extra hole.
You can also see that the bolt has chased some threads in the alloy.
I'm guessing that the hole was drilled after the engine & gearbox were mated (from the rear).
The hole is slightly under size for that size bolt.
Here I'm using metal foil from a wine bottle to make a template for when I drill the extra hole in a spare sump.
This foil is just right for keeping shape, so it can be moulded round the holes to transfer the location.
Well, I've prepped the spare sump for emergency use, and drilled the extra hole using the template.
Round the back it needs strengthening, and I've taken the easy route with JB Weld.
This is so that when the nut is tightened, the filler will not compress, and stop the flange cracking.
Finished off........compare this with the photo in the first post.
Now the question of the sump bolt.
There are two sizes, 21mm & 28mm - and I really can't see what difference it makes.......3051079 is the 28mm version, which comes in this large box.
Look carefully at the integral neoprene washer and you'll see a small raised lip.
This is what makes the seal, so providing it's undamaged, the bolt will be OK to re-use.
Next the gasket.
Two were listed for the ST220, and I went for the post 2003.
The part number for this is 4763355, BUT there's a big but............
I hope it's obvious in this photo.
The gasket is a composite alloy/neoprene (and is over £40.........).
The thickness is at least 2mm and if this were fitted to my Mog it would be visible as a sandwich plate.
No gasket is visible.
I therefore conclude that in order to increase clearance, a paper gasket is used on the Morgan.
FRANK - next time you visit the dealer, can you ask them about the sump gasket please.
I bet it's paper, which means that we can make our own.
More to follow>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And now to the outside........
You should all know what the standard sump looks like.
Lets call it a 'full waffle' design.
The front is smooth....
My replacement Mondeo sump looks like this...........
Lets call this a 'quarter waffle' design:
This casting lacks the thick waffle plate, so has more clearance already.
It also has two indents in the leading edge which are where the cast pillars are situated inside for the baffle plate.
This sump carries the reference "99" F731-6675-BA F1.
Apart from the obvious difference, it's the same as the standard sump.
My investigations showed that there are several different castings, so I sourced one which I will describe as 'quarter waffle and ribs':
This carries the reference "98" F53E-6675-DB F2.
There is a slight difference on the lower left corner - just a small mod to the flange - which is visible.
I've blown the sumps over with aluminium paint so the detail shows.
The second sump is poorly cast with loads of small nodules.
I've filed these off and polished the inside, as rough surfaces disrupt the oil draining back under the baffle plate.
I may take this one to Mulfab to be shortened.
From all this, I conclude that the easiest option is to have a spare sump for emergency use.
These can be found on e-bay, and I'll be happy to point you in the right direction if you send me a PM.
Next, have a sump shortened by Mulfab. For me that's easier if I get a spare sump shortened.
I'd rather keep the original intact, unless it gets holed.
If I go down that route, I'll add the outcome onto this post.
I hope that helps all you low riders.
Oh by the way, the internal baffle setscrews are 5/16" or 8mm.
The sump plug is 15mm. My standard sump has the reference:
F960A 5L8E-6675-BB F4.
The common part in all three is the '6675'.
More to follow>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Following my visit to Mulfab on Saturday I did a bit more investigation on the web.
I've established that the Mondeo sump has a thinner flange, used with a composite spacer gasket.
The Morgan sump has a thicker flange with a cast in groove which takes a simple rubber seal.
My conclusion to all this is that the Morgan Sump is an Escape sump.
However, the composite spacer gasket is available on e-bay USA as an Escape gasket, but for years 2001 to 2003.
It's therefore reasonable to assume that the sump changed at 2004.
Here's a clue..........
I found this entry:
2004 FORD ESCAPE XLT 3.0 DURATEC 24V DOHC V6 OIL PAN
The groove and seal is clearly visible here.
OE part numbers are quoted as:
5L8Z-6675-AA, 7L8Z-6675-A and ZZC2-10-400
Also fits Mazda Tribute and Mercury Mariner.......
Dorman make a replacement steel oil pan for $63, but it's as deep as the alloy sump, although it would be easier to modify.
Obviously the Ford Escape also suffers from sump damage or this part would not be available!!!
2017 Note: It turns out that the Dorrman sump is a cast alloy item.
Roadster sumps are a big issue, and yet so far I've only had one major knock, and got away with it.
The Mulfab skimmed sump is a very worthwhile modification, and the mountings can be spaced up to around 6mm to gain more clearance.
........................................................................
Other Comments.
I went to the Ford Dealer this morning to get a sump gasket and sump plug. This is how it went............
Me: 'DW' "I'd like a sump gasket for a V6 Duratec, and a sump plug please, like this one" I took sump plug with me as a precaution........
Young Stores Man: 'YSM' "We should have one of those - what's it for?"
DW: "a V6 Duratec"
YSM poised over keyboard..."what's the reg number"
DW: " I can't give you the reg number. It's not in a Ford. It's in a Morgan"
YSM now with blank expression as he scrolls down list of Fords......... "so what's it like then?"...nodding towards list of Fords on screen.
DW: "It's not a Ford - the reg number won't help"
DW produces phone with picture of Mog...."this is it"
YSM - suddenly gets it, but clearly has no idea what a Morgan is...."oh V6 Duratec did you say?"
DW: "Yes" - points at 3.0 V6 on drop down menu........
YSM "Nice car that - do you track it?"
DW: "No"
YSM finds sump picture. Two gaskets listed. Two sump plugs listed. "which is it?"
DW: "dunno"
YSM check stock - none in stock.
DW decides to go for later (post 2003) gasket.
YSM points out that sump plugs are 21mm, or 28mm.
DW: "I think it's 28mm"
YSM fetches ruler to measure my old plug. "What needs measuring?"
DW: "try the length". It's 28mm, but YSM not entirely convinced.
I order gasket and plug. Delivery next Thursday.
I'll let you know the outcome - obviously.
...............................................................
The neoprene only gasket (see the picture at the begining of this thread) sourced on the basis of the advice from MMC is part number 4802294 and appears to fit but I can't be sure how much it adds to the depth of the sump once in place.
..............................................................................
A little update in case anyone run into the same issue.
I just damaged the oil sump in question as it is quite low espacially on a 2006 roadster 4 seaters. The oil was starting to leak from the sump as a result.
Just as Dave stated it and following his advices, it is indeed possible to find this oil sump on Ebay. Thanks Dave!
And yes, I have been to a Ford dealer first, but they couldn't order it as the engine is not on their list in France)...
................................................................................
Spoke to SGT as promised. The Gasket in our sump is 'Rubber' which locates in a slot in the sump. I hope that helps the old research.
That's really interesting Frank, because that's a key difference between the standard sump on the Morgan and the sumps I have from the Mondeo, which have no slot.
This is not a problem since I can use paper, or 'toothpaste' tubed gasket compound if necessary.
Now I have one more favour to ask.
We already know that the Series1 Roadster engine was specced from a Jaguar base unit.
I wonder if the 'full waffle' design is a Jag spec sump?
So next time you visit the Jag dealer, I wonder if you know anybody there well enough to find out?
Our's is due a service. I have just been under with a lamp and mirror but due to layers of under trays and heat shields, it is impossible to see anything.
I have never seen a car engine that is so well obliterated top and bottom from eager eyes.
So I will ask at the dealers for you when I give them a call soon.
OK Frank thanks. Interestingly there's an S type sump on e-bay today, and a groove is visible in the flange.
The S Type Jaguar Sump
Although the mating flange is the same as the Mondeo (just a slight variation), the lower half is completely different.
The Jag oil pump take off is at the front (when the engine is in-line), and the rear part tapers to a much more shallow profile.
If this motor is transverse in the Jag that means with the gearbox on the right(nearside)as you peer under the bonnet, the deep section is to the left (offside).
That isn't suitable for a transplant onto a Mog engine, because we really don't want the deepest part at the front!!!!!
The question remains if there are any V6 Jags which use a centre pick up - and you know what that looks like already.
Hi Dave, The motor is not transverse in the S Type. It is in line.
That's the one Frank - very good supplier. You can see the shim gasket in that photo. I haven't mentioned the Morgan connection so far.
I've had two and there were three others, so he has a good supply. I've asked him to keep a look out for a full waffle sump.
So the Jag is in line eh? That's why the main capacity is at the front. I bet there's a crossmember under the centre of the sump on the Jag. Useful info.
A bit more info. The X Type Jag which is Mondeo based has a transverse installation.
I've just located a photo of the X Type sump on a US website. It doesn't have the waffle pattern, but has a smooth bottom.
It does however have a deeper front section, and shallower rear ribs so I suspect if one of these were modified it might be a better compromise.
The Jag uses the sandwich gasket, so the origins of the Morgan rubber seal in the groove has not yet appeared on another Duratec V6.
I've exchanged e-mails with Mulfab, and will be paying a visit in a week or two...............all being well.
..............................................................
........................................................................
Other Comments.
I went to the Ford Dealer this morning to get a sump gasket and sump plug. This is how it went............
Me: 'DW' "I'd like a sump gasket for a V6 Duratec, and a sump plug please, like this one" I took sump plug with me as a precaution........
Young Stores Man: 'YSM' "We should have one of those - what's it for?"
DW: "a V6 Duratec"
YSM poised over keyboard..."what's the reg number"
DW: " I can't give you the reg number. It's not in a Ford. It's in a Morgan"
YSM now with blank expression as he scrolls down list of Fords......... "so what's it like then?"...nodding towards list of Fords on screen.
DW: "It's not a Ford - the reg number won't help"
DW produces phone with picture of Mog...."this is it"
YSM - suddenly gets it, but clearly has no idea what a Morgan is...."oh V6 Duratec did you say?"
DW: "Yes" - points at 3.0 V6 on drop down menu........
YSM "Nice car that - do you track it?"
DW: "No"
YSM finds sump picture. Two gaskets listed. Two sump plugs listed. "which is it?"
DW: "dunno"
YSM check stock - none in stock.
DW decides to go for later (post 2003) gasket.
YSM points out that sump plugs are 21mm, or 28mm.
DW: "I think it's 28mm"
YSM fetches ruler to measure my old plug. "What needs measuring?"
DW: "try the length". It's 28mm, but YSM not entirely convinced.
I order gasket and plug. Delivery next Thursday.
I'll let you know the outcome - obviously.
...............................................................
The neoprene only gasket (see the picture at the begining of this thread) sourced on the basis of the advice from MMC is part number 4802294 and appears to fit but I can't be sure how much it adds to the depth of the sump once in place.
..............................................................................
A little update in case anyone run into the same issue.
I just damaged the oil sump in question as it is quite low espacially on a 2006 roadster 4 seaters. The oil was starting to leak from the sump as a result.
Just as Dave stated it and following his advices, it is indeed possible to find this oil sump on Ebay. Thanks Dave!
And yes, I have been to a Ford dealer first, but they couldn't order it as the engine is not on their list in France)...
................................................................................
Spoke to SGT as promised. The Gasket in our sump is 'Rubber' which locates in a slot in the sump. I hope that helps the old research.
That's really interesting Frank, because that's a key difference between the standard sump on the Morgan and the sumps I have from the Mondeo, which have no slot.
This is not a problem since I can use paper, or 'toothpaste' tubed gasket compound if necessary.
Now I have one more favour to ask.
We already know that the Series1 Roadster engine was specced from a Jaguar base unit.
I wonder if the 'full waffle' design is a Jag spec sump?
So next time you visit the Jag dealer, I wonder if you know anybody there well enough to find out?
Our's is due a service. I have just been under with a lamp and mirror but due to layers of under trays and heat shields, it is impossible to see anything.
I have never seen a car engine that is so well obliterated top and bottom from eager eyes.
So I will ask at the dealers for you when I give them a call soon.
OK Frank thanks. Interestingly there's an S type sump on e-bay today, and a groove is visible in the flange.
The S Type Jaguar Sump
Although the mating flange is the same as the Mondeo (just a slight variation), the lower half is completely different.
The Jag oil pump take off is at the front (when the engine is in-line), and the rear part tapers to a much more shallow profile.
If this motor is transverse in the Jag that means with the gearbox on the right(nearside)as you peer under the bonnet, the deep section is to the left (offside).
That isn't suitable for a transplant onto a Mog engine, because we really don't want the deepest part at the front!!!!!
The question remains if there are any V6 Jags which use a centre pick up - and you know what that looks like already.
Hi Dave, The motor is not transverse in the S Type. It is in line.
That's the one Frank - very good supplier. You can see the shim gasket in that photo. I haven't mentioned the Morgan connection so far.
I've had two and there were three others, so he has a good supply. I've asked him to keep a look out for a full waffle sump.
So the Jag is in line eh? That's why the main capacity is at the front. I bet there's a crossmember under the centre of the sump on the Jag. Useful info.
A bit more info. The X Type Jag which is Mondeo based has a transverse installation.
I've just located a photo of the X Type sump on a US website. It doesn't have the waffle pattern, but has a smooth bottom.
It does however have a deeper front section, and shallower rear ribs so I suspect if one of these were modified it might be a better compromise.
The Jag uses the sandwich gasket, so the origins of the Morgan rubber seal in the groove has not yet appeared on another Duratec V6.
I've exchanged e-mails with Mulfab, and will be paying a visit in a week or two...............all being well.
..............................................................
